What is Old School Gaming?

[Baron Von Harper]

This thread just gave me an idea.  I'm going to post a sort of challenge for Jason, because I sort of think if he tinkers with the rules, that he might glean a little about these types of games.

Look for the Jason Dungeonjamming Challenge thread. 

[Evernevermore]

Last post on this thread for a while, as I feel like I'm beating my head on a wall. Frost describes it better than I can.

 I'm firmly #3 as you can't have nostalgia for something you only discovered later. I got into the hobby with AD&D 2e, and I've played newer editions and found the older rules resulted in more roleplay to resolve things and less dice rolling to resolve them,

And as to non D&D old school; there's Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, rolemaster, anything from Kevin Seimbaba (though most are so broken they only exist as resources), Gamma World, Top Secret, James Bond, Star Frontiers, etc.

[friarzen]

I have to agree with Frost's short 4 point list above as the simplest defining features of what constitutes "Old School" RPG Gaming.  Restated here using my personal interpretation:

* Sandbox (mega-dungeon or whatever)
* Player skill trumps stats on a sheet of paper
* Players suffer the consequences of their decisions (Death, etc)
* Randomness adds to the experience (Dice fall where they may/wandering monsters/etc)

In all, Old School Gaming, to me, involves a feeling of triumph at having survived a session by my wits, improv, and some good luck and being able to advance that character to the next session.  It means having both the peak of victory and the occasional agony of defeat to make the victories all the sweeter.

Jason Said:
True, but that doesn't answer the question of why people still play them. If I want a particular experience, and game A is laser focused on providing me with the experience I want, and game B kinda sorta wanders in that direction, why would I ever play game B? I see three possibilities:

    * I don't know that game A exists, so I'll continue to play game B, not knowing what I'm missing.
    * I have a lot of nostalgia for game B, so I'll continue playing it. I'll tell people that I enjoy playing game B, because it's not about the game for me; the game has become a symbol for a whole mass of feelings and memories, including time spent with my friends and my feelings towards them. I probably proceed to attach some identity politics to it, as well. I identify myself as a player of game B. As a result, someone who tells me about game A is attacking my identity, my friends, and my cherished memories, rather than pointing out the mechanical weaknesses in a rule set.
    * Though not designed consciously for it, the rules thus assembled shape a unique experience all its own. I play game B because game A doesn't actually deliver the same experience I want.

At times, the OSR has seemed to me to be largely driven by #1 or #2. But that's the perspective of an outsider looking in, and I've been told on many occasions that I fundamentally do not understand old school games. I hope it's #3. Or, perhaps there's a #4 that just hasn't occurred to me.

Well, #1 is somewhat pointless since nobody will have the ability to play ALL possible games, so in some sense we are all subject to playing what we know/have available.  With that caveat, I believe #3 captures what I mean in my previous post, the "House Rules" effect of these systems ends up being a unique experience each time.

I very much like that kind of experience. That really lies at the heart of a playing style that Willem Larsen dubbed "storyjamming," something I like a great deal. But don't old school games also have a very strong delineation that puts the GM in charge of the world and the other characters, and the other players in charge of their player characters, all with a very strong emphasis that no one should cross those lines, ever? If players aren't allowed to contribute, except in those narrowly defined ways, doesn't that undermine the idea of going with the flow and seeing where it ends up?

No, I don't believe it undermines "Going with the Flow" at all...an integral part of that flow is what the GM creates.

--friar

[Random]

Like Jason, I've been keeping up with this thread because I want to understand the appeal and definition of old school gaming considering its resurgence in popularity.  Here's what I perceive to be the general consensus so far:

Features of Old School Games

• The DM is a referee and adversary, not a story teller
• It's very possible to do nearly everything on the fly using the DM's on-the-spot rulings
• Random tables are used during gameplay (wandering monsters, treasure, reaction charts)
• Characters earn their name through overcoming obstacles and opponents, going from zero to hero
• Each campaign is unique to the DM and players
• Corollary: Each campaign has a number of house rule supplements
• Character relationships with each other and NPCs are roleplayed, but have no mechanical benefit or supporting rules otherwise
• Game balance isn't particularly important
• ---   The following features are shared with numerous other RPGs as well: ---
• They have less DM prep time and less player paperwork overall
• The lack of definitive rules for all circumstances often sparks more DM and player creativity
• The game focuses more on mapping, noticing details, experimentation, deduction, and exploration rather than combat
• Small events could lead to large consequences (the Riddles in the Dark and Mystery Box effects)
• The player has the final say on what the character does
• Corollary: Players suffer the consequences of their decisions
• The rules are guidelines and not the be-all end-all final word with the GM as the final arbiter
• Players don't need to pre-plot their character's classes to reach certain character class goals
• It's more about playing your character than playing your character sheet
• They are run by a DM as dictator, benevolent or otherwise
• They exist in a campaign world

What an Old School Game Is Not

• GM-less
• A story game
• A miniatures combat game

Stereotypical (but not required) Elements of Old School Games

• Humanocentric fantasy settings
• The feel of the game is more "average person" than "superheroic powerful beings"
• Huge dungeon crawls
• The GM will run a game less based on a strict plot and more based on character reactions and decisions (the Sandbox), often improvising as he goes

Keep in mind that these are sweeping generalizations (some DMs don't use the random treasure charts, an old school game could be run as a storygame with epic plots, etc.) and not specific requirements for defining something that, by its nature, can't be clearly defined.  I also copied, edited, combined, and paraphrased several of the comments made in the thread so far.

I also left off rules lite because I'm unsure how to classify it in this context, or if it should even be listed.  There was not a consensus here that old school is rules lite, and numerous arguments either way.  Maybe that's a different discussion: are old school games that use modern rules lite rules actually old school?

[Baron Von Harper]

Nice summary Todd.   

I think different groups of people classify old school in different ways as well, but I think you hit many of the elements of it in that last post.  It might be hard to define it, or understand why people like it, but at the end of the day, they like them, and they play them.

[Gabriel Stryffe]

I would like to begin with an apology,

I myself only recently started reading this thread, so I'm not quite caught up on all of the posts just yet. That being said I still wanted to throw my own two tollars in on the subject and would like to say that I can only apologize for my ignorance in advance if the current direction of the discussion has nothing to do with what I am submitting as my own humble offering to the table.

I myself as an "old-school" gamer (at least in my opinion) have a few ideas as to what sperates old-school from...um the new shchool (New age? Modern Gaming?), whatever you want to call it. How the two of them differ, in my experience, is that there are certain elements that you will find in an old-school game and likewise not commonly find in games today - either as a direct result of game mechanics or simply the way people run or play. I have a short list of only some of these elements prepared...

• The game in it's entirety is not just a collection of adventures that the characters go on, and actual role-playing is NOT jsut something that you do to fill that annoying time between combats. Role-Playing is ingrained into every element of the game and the character down to what the character eats for breakfast and what weapons they prefer to wield (Dual wield, Sword and board, etc).
• Your character cannot get away with being a moron. You mouth off to the wrong people, like a king, a knight, a samurai, a crime lord, and the character will die. More imporatantly, delicate negations or social situations cannot simply be solved with a dice roll, no matter how charismatic your character may be. On the other side of the same token, the more foolish riskes you take like walking ahead of the trap-finder, throwing yourself headlong into danger or combt against a superior force, or engaging in rampant acts of violence and theivery wihtout regard for the consequenses, will aslo definitely, if not eventually, get you killed.
• Player/Character/Party Cooperation...enough said, moving on
• No, on second thought, we're going to revist that one. Good or bad, for better or for worse, the characters are a team. A team that works together for mutual benefit, and the characters take an interest in the goals of their fellow party members.
• Danger lurks around every corner and you cannot rely on numbers and figures on a sheet of paper to save the character's life. Sometimes you have to play smart and remember that just because you have a CON of forty-rediculous or a +250 to save against poison, doesn't mean that you should try to drink the dwarven ale or the contents of a vial marked poison - "MMMM, I drank the purble potion, it tastes like...burning!"
• "No Save" or "INstant Kill" effects. Many game worlds are really dangerous and really scary places. And in these worlds lurk monsters that could swallow you whole or technology that could reduce you to atoms...or worse. Sometiems the only saving throw you get is to not get hit, not willingly touch or put on the cursed item, or not draw from the deck (you D&D gamers know what I'm talking about).

Ultimately, I think "Old-School" is more of a fame of mind regarding how a game is run or played rather than whether or not a game in and of itself could be considerred old-school.


~R~

Lord Gabriel Stryffe